Muhammad bin Salman, Saudi Arabia’s deputy crown prince and the country's defence minister, spoke to
The Economist
on January 4th. As part of a five-hour conversation, he gave his first
on-the-record interview, which we have transcribed below. Our
briefing includes quotations from both this and the broader discussion. Our cover leader is available
here and more analysis on a possible Aramco listing is
here.
The Economist: Let’s focus first on the recent
executions. Why did they take place now, so many years after the
terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia? And why did you include a prominent
shia cleric?Muhammad bin Salman:
First of all, these were sentenced in a court of law with charges
related to terrorism and they went through three layers of judicial
proceedings. They had the right to hire an attorney and they had
attorneys present throughout each layer of the proceedings. The court
doors were also open for any media people and journalists, and all the
proceedings and the judicial texts were made public. And the court did
not, at all, make any distinction between whether or not a person is
Shi’ite or Sunni. They are reviewing a crime, and a procedure, and a
trial, and a sentence, and carrying out the sentence.
But these executions have provoked violent reactions in
Iran. Your embassy was attacked, you’ve broken off diplomatic relations,
as have Bahrain and Sudan. What will be the consequence of this
escalation of regional tensions?We view them as a
strange thing, that there are demonstrations against Saudi Arabia in
Iran. What is the relationship between a Saudi citizen who committed a
crime in Saudi Arabia, and a decision made by a Saudi court. What has
this to do with Iran? If this proves anything it proves that Iran is
keen on extending its influence over the countries of the region.
Did you not unfairly escalate tensions by breaking off diplomatic relations?On
the contrary, we fear that they will be further escalated. Imagine if
any Saudi diplomat, or one of their families or children are attacked in
Iran. Iran’s position then will be much more difficult. So we prevented
Iran from having to undergo such an embarrassment. The Saudi mission
was set ablaze and the Iranian government is watching. If a child, or a
diplomat, or their families are attacked, what could happen? Then we
will have the real conflict and the real escalation.
Are you suggesting conflict between Iran and Saudi Arabia, outright conflict, is a possibility?Because of this procedure?
And the consequences thereof.If it’s
because of this procedure I don’t believe that this could be a cause to
further any tension between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Because Iranian
escalation has already reached very high levels and we try as hard as we
can to not escalate anything further, we only deal with the procedures
and steps taken against us.
Is war between your two countries, direct war, possible?It
is something that we do not foresee at all, and whoever is pushing
towards that is somebody who is not in their right mind. Because a war
between Saudi Arabia and Iran is the beginning of a major catastrophe in
the region, and it will reflect very strongly on the rest of the world.
For sure we will not allow any such thing.
Do you consider Iran to be your biggest enemy?We hope not.
One area where there might be considered to be what you
might call proxy conflict between you is Yemen. You are the architect of
the war in Yemen; when will it end?First of all I’m
not the architect of the Yemen operation. We are a country of
institutions. The decision to proceed with the operation in Yemen, this
is a decision to do with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry
of Defence, with the intelligence, the council of ministers, and the
council of security and political affairs, and then all recommendations
are submitted to His Majesty, and the decision to go forward is with His
Majesty. My job as the minister of defence is to implement whatever
decision his majesty has ordered. And I will submit any threats that I
see. And to make preparations for any threats.
The decision was taken soon after you became defence minister. When do you expect the operation to finish?Regarding
the fact that the decision was made after I became minister of defence,
why did we forget the fact that Houthis usurped power in the capital,
Sana’a, after His Majesty became king? This has nothing to do with the
fact that I became minister. It has everything to do with what the
Houthis did. I have surface-to-surface missiles right now on my borders,
only 30-50 km away from my borders, the range of these missiles could
reach 550km, owned by militia, and militia carrying out exercises on my
borders, and militia in control of warplanes, for the first time in
history, right on my borders, and these war planes that are controlled
by the militia carry out activities against their own people in Aden. Is
there any country in the world who would accept the fact that a militia
with this kind of armament should be on their borders? Especially that
they dealt with total disregard of UN Security Council resolutions, and
posed a direct threat to our national interests. And we had a previous
experience, a bad experience with them back in 2009. The operations
carried out were supported and upheld by the UN Security Council,
without any opposition.
When the operations began, many expected it to be quick. Now, ten months on, are you in a military quagmire?No,
there were different objectives. The first objective of the Decisive
Storm was to disable the main capabilities of this militia. The air
capabilities, their air defence capabilities, to destroy 90% of their
missile arsenal. And then we started the process of a political solution
in Yemen, which is a whole different stage. All of our efforts are to
push for the political solution. But this does not mean we will allow
for the militia to expand on the ground, they must realise that every
day they do not get closer to the political solution, they lose on the
ground.
How long will it take?Nobody can
predict that in a war, not from the greatest of generals to the smallest
of generals. We could see Daesh today and nobody could predict when
they’re going to be defeated. But what I could say was ten months ago
half of Aden was not in control of government, and now over 80% of
Yemeni lands are under the control of the legitimate government. And I
want to emphasise that the world today has uncovered the games played by
the Houthis, especially the games that they’ve been using regarding
humanitarian aid.
You’re also in charge of the economy. Let’s now turn to
the budget. The price of oil is $35 a barrel, your deficit last year,
2015, was 15% of GDP. Does Saudi Arabia face an economic crisis?We’re
too far from it. We are further than the ’80s and the ’90s. We have the
third-largest reserve in the world. We were able to increase our
non-oil revenues this year alone by 29%. We were able to come out with
more positive things than what most people thought about the economy of
Saudi Arabia, regarding deficit and regarding spending. And we have
clear programmes over the next five years. We announced some of them,
and the rest we will announce in the near future. In addition to this,
my debt-to-GDP is only 5%. So I have all points of strength, and I have
the opportunities to increase our non-oil revenues in many sectors, and I
have a global economic network.
How will you increase non-oil revenues? Will you introduce VAT? Will you introduce income taxes?There
are going to be no income taxes, and no wealth taxes. We’re talking
about taxes or fees that are supported by the citizen, including the VAT
and the sin tax. They will create good revenues, but not the only
revenues. We have many opportunities in mining, we have more than 6% of
world reserves of uranium, we have many unutilised assets. We have four
million square metres in Mecca alone of unutilised state-owned lands.
The value in the market is very high; we have many assets that could be
transformed into investment assets. We believe we could reach a point of
non-oil revenues reaching $100 billion over the next five years.
When will you introduce the VAT?We’ll try to do that by the end of 2016 or 2017, and we’ll try to expedite it.
And what will you privatise to raise revenues?Health
care, educational sector, some military sectors such as military
industries and some state-owned companies. It will decrease some of the
pressure that the government has, and some of them may create good
profit.
Can you imagine selling shares in Saudi Aramco?This
is something that is being reviewed, and we believe a decision will be
made over the next few months. Personally I’m enthusiastic about this
step. I believe it is in the interest of the Saudi market, and it is in
the interest of Aramco, and it is for the interest of more transparency,
and to counter corruption, if any, that may be circling around Aramco.
You have said that one of the challenges is to diversify
the Saudi Arabian economy away from oil. What sectors will be priority
sectors in that diversification?Mining, subsidy
reforms. We have only 20% of those middle classes and lower who benefit
from subsidies. We target the 80% and we try to keep the interests of
the middle classes and lower; they will generate good revenues. And as I
told you there are unutilised assets: expanding religious tourism, like
increasing the numbers of tourists and pilgrims to Mecca and Medina
will give more value to state-owned lands in both cities.
You have done some price increases in this
budget—electricity, gasoline—but you still have many subsidies. Do you
aim to get rid of subsidies completely?We want to
reach free energy markets, but with subsidy programmes for those with
low income, and not to have the subsidy in the form of lowering the
energy prices, but through other programmes. And also some of the most
important assets that we’re working on: We have a very magnificent area
north of Jeddah, between the cities of Umluj and Wuj, there are almost
100 islands there, in one atoll. The temperature is ideal, five to seven
degrees cooler than Jeddah. It’s virgin land, I spent the last eight
holidays there. I was shocked to discover something like this in Saudi
Arabia, and there were steps taken to preserve this land, 300km by
200km. This is one of the assets that we target, and we believe it has
an added value other than generating income for state funds. So we have
many unutilised assets. In Mecca, Medina, in rural areas and in urban
areas. Jeddah for example: there is a land, total area about five
million square metres, right on the beach front, in the heart of Jeddah,
it’s owned by the air defence. The value of the land itself is about
$10bn. The cost of transferring all the structures and buildings is
about $300m. So this is a big waste. So to utilise the unutilised assets
will create profit and generate development, this is massive work that
we’re addressing. We are targeting to introduce new assets into the
state-owned funds that are equivalent to $400bn, over the next few
years.
Assets that you will privatise?These
will go to the funds, and then will turn into projects, and into
companies, and then will be offered on IPOs to the public.
This is a Thatcher revolution for Saudi Arabia?Most
certainly. We have many great, unutilised assets. And we have also
special sectors that can grow very quickly. I’ll give you one example.
We are one of the poorest countries when it comes to water. There’s one
Saudi company that’s an example among many companies, like Amarai dairy
company, their share in the Omani market is 80%. Their share in the
Kuwaiti market is more than 20%. Their share in the Emirati market than
40%. In Egypt, where there is the Nile, their share is 10%. One Saudi
company. We have other dairy, agricultural companies, and you can also
do the same with the banking sector. The mining sector. The oil and
petrochemical sector. There are many enormous opportunities to expand
and develop.
This will require tremendous investment. One estimate I
read said $4 trillion between now and 2030. Where will this money come
from?This is a report from McKinsey, not from the
Saudi government. We try to be optimistic in some parts even more, and
in some parts we try to be conservative. Anyway, McKinsey participates
with us in many studies, but these investments we’ll try to attract from
many sources: the Saudi investor, the state-owned funds, the GCC [Gulf
Cooperation Council] funds, and the international funds.
Why would a foreign investor want to invest in Saudi Arabia now?Profitability
is the question, and this is what we’re trying to offer in order to
attract investment. And this happens at the same time while having good
regulations, and that could guarantee the safety of their investments.
And we’re not a country new to foreign investment. The largest of
international companies are present in the Saudi market: Boeing, Airbus,
GE, GM, Sony, Siemens; all the large players are in the Saudi market.
And all the major and key banks are opening branches in Saudi Arabia. So
I’m not just opening up to the world; I’m already open to the world.
I’m only giving out opportunities.
One challenge we haven’t discussed yet is the youth of
the Saudi population: 70% of your country’s population is aged 30 and
under. How will you create jobs for these people?We
have great opportunities to create jobs in the private sector. The
mining sector will help us a great deal in creating jobs, the programme
addressing the pilgrims and the visitors will also generate many jobs,
the investments will also create jobs. We do not expect that our
unemployment will grow, we believe it will decline over the next few
years, to a good extent. At the same time I have reserves now, ten
million jobs that are being occupied by non-Saudi employees that I can
resort to at any time of my choosing. But I don’t want to pressure the
private sector, unless this is the last resort.
You would prevent the hiring of foreigners?We’re
trying to resort to creating jobs, if we cannot cover all, then we’re
forced to exert pressure on the private sector, like what was done, the
Saudisation programme.
The shift you’re describing: introduction of non-oil tax
revenue, reduction of subsidies, move towards private sector employment;
it suggests the remaking, in many ways, of the Saudi economy and the
Saudi social contract. Won’t that force broader change in what is still a
very conservative society?This one thing is not at
all related to the other. We have our values: it is important to us, the
participation in decision making; it is important to us to have our
freedom of expression; it is important to us to have human rights. We
have our own factors and values and principles as the Saudi society and
we try to make progress according to our own needs. Our situation today
is not the same as it was 50 years ago. Fifty years ago we did not even
have a legislative body. Today we have women with good representation at
the parliament, and women do vote and nominate themselves for
elections, and today we are making progress. According to our own needs,
according to our own pace, and not as a response to any other model.
But you believe you can have more taxation without more representation?There are no taxes.
But you are introducing taxes.We’re
talking about different forms of taxes. We’re talking about VAT, it will
not be applied to any of the basic products; it will be on accessories.
The VAT will not be on basic products.Such as water, dairy, milk…
They will be excluded?No doubt. If they will influence the price.
I see. But you can have that kind of taxation without an increase in representation?Again,
one thing is not related to the other. This is not a decision from the
government against the people. This is the decision of Saudi Arabia.
With the government that represents the people. Before any decision to
reform, we work on many workshops that represent many people.
What about broader social reform? How can you create a
high-productivity modern economy with a vibrant tourist industry, a
vibrant health-care sector, a vibrant education industry, if women can’t
drive, if women can’t travel without permission.Women today can travel. They work in the business sector…
But with the permission of their family members.This
is different. When you’re talking about permission, you’re talking
about women who do not reach a certain age. Not a woman who’s
responsible for herself. This has its own social criteria and religious
criteria. Some of them are things we can change, and some things even if
we want to change we cannot do that. But I guarantee to you that there
are no obstacles in the way of women furthering their participation and
working in the…
So why is Saudi Arabia’s rate of women in the workforce, 18%, one of the lowest in the world?Culture
of women in Saudi Arabia; the woman herself. She’s not used to working.
She needs more time to accustom herself to the idea of work. A large
percentage of Saudi women are used to the fact of staying at home.
They’re not used to being working women. It just takes time.
Do you think having a greater proportion of women in the workforce would be good for Saudi Arabia?No
doubt. A large portion of my productive factors are unutilised. And I
have population growth reaching very scary figures. Women’s work will
help in both of these issues.
You are one of the 70% of Saudi Arabians who are aged
thirty and under. You are in charge of the country’s defence and its
economy, you epitomise in many ways the new generation of Saudi Arabia.
What kind of Saudi Arabia do you want to create?The
Saudi Arabia that I hope for, as well as the other 70%: a Saudi Arabia
that is not dependent on oil; a Saudi Arabia with a growing economy; a
Saudi Arabia with transparent laws; a Saudi Arabia with a very strong
position in the world; a Saudi Arabia that can fulfil the dream of any
Saudi, or his ambition, through creating enticing incentives, the right
environment; a Saudi Arabia with sustainability; a Saudi Arabia that
guarantees the participation of everyone in decision-making; a Saudi
Arabia that is an important addition to the world and participates in
the production of the world, and participates in facing the obstacles or
the challenges that face the world. My dream as a young man in Saudi
Arabia, and the dreams of men in Saudi Arabia are so many, and I try to
compete with them and their dreams, and they compete with mine, to
create a better Saudi Arabia.
You lay out a very positive vision for Saudi Arabia, yet
we are living in a time, one of the most dangerous times in the region
for many, many years. How do you juxtapose those two visions?You’re
from Britain, and I am a fan of Churchill. And Churchill said that
opportunities come during crises. And I recall Churchill’s statement
whenever I see the obstacles or the crises in the region. So this is how
I view the challenges or the crises in the region.
And has the crisis in the region become more difficult with the United States’ disengagement from the region?We
understand the work carried out by the United States. America is
carrying out many efforts. We try to assist with all the efforts carried
out by the United States. We try to express our point of view and I can
tell you that work between us and the United States is very strong and
very magnificent. But the United States must realise that they are the
number one in the world and they have to act like it.
Have they not been acting like it?We are concerned that something like this may happen.
Do you feel let down by them?We
understand. We realise that we are part of the problem of not putting
our own perspective through to them. We did not put enough efforts in
order to get our point across. We believe that this will change in the
future.
Is Saudi Arabia stepping up to a new kind of leadership role in the region?In
the region we are dealing with all of our allies on an equal footing.
And we’re all dealing with facing the challenges of the region. We and
the GCC countries, Egypt, Turkey, Sudan, the countries in the Horn of
Africa, the countries of north Africa, west African countries, east
Asian countries, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc., Pakistan. We try to
collectively face these challenges. Because these challenges pose
threats to us all, and we must face them as one team. And we try to do
positive work.
Five years ago, the Arab spring began. It’s been a pretty
grim five years in many ways in the region. Will the next five years be
better or worse?First of all I can say that the Arab
spring was the real test that put to the test the authoritative form of
government and non-authoritative form of government, and the regime that
represents its people versus the regime that does not represent its
people. Any regime that did not represent its people collapsed in the
Arab spring, and the other regimes we saw what happened to them.
The House of Saud represents its people?We
are part of a national process; we are part of the local tribes of the
country; we are part of the regions in the country; we have been working
together for the past three hundred years.
Your Royal Highness, thank you very much.Thank
you. I’m very glad to have you here today, I’m happy to receive these
questions. We always take criticism from our friends. If we are wrong,
we need to hear that we are wrong. But if we are not wrong, we need to
hear support from our friends. What I request is that the thing you
actually believe, to say it.
We always do. Thank you.